Comments on: My Calvinistic Mistake http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/ Peering into the mystery of truth Fri, 20 Mar 2009 00:41:48 +0000 http://wordpress.com/ hourly 1 By: chrisbollegar http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-98 chrisbollegar Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:21:45 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-98 True, but you can also pull something. True, but you can also pull something.

]]> By: St. Ampher http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-97 St. Ampher Thu, 04 Dec 2008 03:07:12 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-97 Stretchin keeps ya limber. Stretchin keeps ya limber.

]]> By: chrisbollegar http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-96 chrisbollegar Sat, 29 Nov 2008 20:28:39 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-96 Sorry it has been so long in answering. It seems that you are simply arguing from specifics (i.e. certain statements about very specific events in which God acts sovereignly) to a universal. In some instances this may be a valid as a way of stating a hypothesis to be tested by later data observed, but I am not convinced that it is the right move here. Again, I come back to the simple fact that we are not told that God predestined all things before time began. To reason from God's actions in history to very historical circumstances back to a pre-creation decree that encompasses all things seems a stretch. Sorry it has been so long in answering. It seems that you are simply arguing from specifics (i.e. certain statements about very specific events in which God acts sovereignly) to a universal. In some instances this may be a valid as a way of stating a hypothesis to be tested by later data observed, but I am not convinced that it is the right move here. Again, I come back to the simple fact that we are not told that God predestined all things before time began. To reason from God’s actions in history to very historical circumstances back to a pre-creation decree that encompasses all things seems a stretch.

]]> By: St. Ampher http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-93 St. Ampher Sun, 26 Oct 2008 23:57:44 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-93 So again, I'm going with both. I see this here Book as the story told by the Sovereign we both agree is doing what He wants when He wants. But seems to me He also portrays Himself as not only knowing in advance how the story is going to unfold, but also as constructing the individual characters and national movements and even natural phenomena along the way to get to the happy ending He has in mind. "I will raise up so-and-so" and I will harden that dude's heart" etc. He predicts/foretells/predestines/makes happen tons of stuff, to the extent that I take it that He is running the whole show and making sure it all goes down as planned. But what He DOESN'T reveal in this story is YOUR (or my) place in it -- on the good side or bad? The book is constructed for the whole purpose of making the reader/listener ask this question. If you have ears to hear, you'll go: "Wo -- Oh ... My ... God ... This thing's real. Oh Jesus, I'm in a world a hurt. Please make it be that You have chosen me. I'm sincerely begging You." And asking this is, of course, a pretty good indication itself that you are hidden in the story with the guys in white hats. But this is the hear of your, preacher. Follow the Word. Don't show God as "sovereign" but without the all encompassing plan AND activity to get us there; but to ask your hearers if they are on the right side of His plan and actions. "Has He given you faith? You have been given this moment to desparately beg Him for it. And if indeed you do, you will by that very participation with Him have evidence and know that you are His. If you will or can not, I pray God helps you soon. Because there will be no greater tragedy/hell/misery than what is about to unfold for you. So again, I’m going with both. I see this here Book as the story told by the Sovereign we both agree is doing what He wants when He wants. But seems to me He also portrays Himself as not only knowing in advance how the story is going to unfold, but also as constructing the individual characters and national movements and even natural phenomena along the way to get to the happy ending He has in mind. “I will raise up so-and-so” and I will harden that dude’s heart” etc.

He predicts/foretells/predestines/makes happen tons of stuff, to the extent that I take it that He is running the whole show and making sure it all goes down as planned.

But what He DOESN’T reveal in this story is YOUR (or my) place in it — on the good side or bad? The book is constructed for the whole purpose of making the reader/listener ask this question. If you have ears to hear, you’ll go: “Wo — Oh … My … God … This thing’s real. Oh Jesus, I’m in a world a hurt. Please make it be that You have chosen me. I’m sincerely begging You.” And asking this is, of course, a pretty good indication itself that you are hidden in the story with the guys in white hats.

But this is the hear of your, preacher. Follow the Word. Don’t show God as “sovereign” but without the all encompassing plan AND activity to get us there; but to ask your hearers if they are on the right side of His plan and actions. “Has He given you faith? You have been given this moment to desparately beg Him for it. And if indeed you do, you will by that very participation with Him have evidence and know that you are His. If you will or can not, I pray God helps you soon. Because there will be no greater tragedy/hell/misery than what is about to unfold for you.

]]> By: chrisbollegar http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-90 chrisbollegar Fri, 24 Oct 2008 06:04:53 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-90 And now you are at the crux of the issue [as it pertains to the philosophical doctrine of God's predetermining actions], the knowledge of God. This is a very important issue, but we were talking about sovereignty, i.e. what God does, now we have moved to what God knows. The two are related to be sure, but not identical. My point in the post was regarding the activity of God in predetermination specifically, not His knowledge. And now you are at the crux of the issue [as it pertains to the philosophical doctrine of God's predetermining actions], the knowledge of God. This is a very important issue, but we were talking about sovereignty, i.e. what God does, now we have moved to what God knows. The two are related to be sure, but not identical. My point in the post was regarding the activity of God in predetermination specifically, not His knowledge.

]]> By: St. Ampher http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-88 St. Ampher Fri, 24 Oct 2008 03:29:05 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-88 On counseling, I'm saying not that God proposed the adultery, as though He endorsed it, but rather along the lines "He knows ... He knows. He was right there and felt the pain and betrayal before you knew it was happening. He'll carry you through it. On which passages support crafting all the events -- you'd probably want me to start at the beginning. "What was He thinking!! Didn't He know what would happen, what with all this pain and death -- even His own Son eventually got caught up in this mess. I bet He wouldn't do that again!" On counseling, I’m saying not that God proposed the adultery, as though He endorsed it, but rather along the lines “He knows … He knows. He was right there and felt the pain and betrayal before you knew it was happening. He’ll carry you through it.

On which passages support crafting all the events — you’d probably want me to start at the beginning. “What was He thinking!! Didn’t He know what would happen, what with all this pain and death — even His own Son eventually got caught up in this mess. I bet He wouldn’t do that again!”

]]> By: chrisbollegar http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-86 chrisbollegar Thu, 23 Oct 2008 15:08:43 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-86 I would be interested in hearing what passages you would use to support that God "crafts every nook and crany of the historical narrative." And as far as counseling, I don't think that is the way I would counsel someone who was "broken" or experiencing "evil", if you are suggesting that the counsel is something along the lines of "God is sovereign and has purposed this event that is causing so much trouble in your life, so don't worry, He has a plan." I could never picture myself saying that to a spouse who has experienced the betrayal of adultery. I couldn't say that God purposed the adultery. I could say that He is trustworthy and you should rely upon His compassion, justice, mercy and providence to work out of this situation good. Whether or not God "purposed" it, I cannot tell. I do believe God "purposes" evil for His purpose at times, but I don't reason from that that all evil is therefore "purposed" by Him. I choose to leave that a mystery. I would be interested in hearing what passages you would use to support that God “crafts every nook and crany of the historical narrative.” And as far as counseling, I don’t think that is the way I would counsel someone who was “broken” or experiencing “evil”, if you are suggesting that the counsel is something along the lines of “God is sovereign and has purposed this event that is causing so much trouble in your life, so don’t worry, He has a plan.” I could never picture myself saying that to a spouse who has experienced the betrayal of adultery. I couldn’t say that God purposed the adultery. I could say that He is trustworthy and you should rely upon His compassion, justice, mercy and providence to work out of this situation good. Whether or not God “purposed” it, I cannot tell. I do believe God “purposes” evil for His purpose at times, but I don’t reason from that that all evil is therefore “purposed” by Him. I choose to leave that a mystery.

]]> By: St. Ampher http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-81 St. Ampher Sun, 19 Oct 2008 22:39:18 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-81 I here you saying God doesn't in Scripture (OT, anyway) present Himself as predetermining every detail of history before it happens -- an idea about which philosophers and theologians show a lot of interest. And I'm responding that a person might indeed get the sense from the OT that He does indeed craft every nook and crany of historical narrative. That the OT presents this without "asking the questions" of predestination could be the result of not being a question or troublesome issue in the first place. As a pastor, incidentally, I bet you take the same tack in counseling the broken -- the Lord is working His purpose out, all the hairs are numbered, trust and obey as His strong arm will guide and protect you, nothing escapes His loving control, ... I here you saying God doesn’t in Scripture (OT, anyway) present Himself as predetermining every detail of history before it happens — an idea about which philosophers and theologians show a lot of interest. And I’m responding that a person might indeed get the sense from the OT that He does indeed craft every nook and crany of historical narrative. That the OT presents this without “asking the questions” of predestination could be the result of not being a question or troublesome issue in the first place. As a pastor, incidentally, I bet you take the same tack in counseling the broken — the Lord is working His purpose out, all the hairs are numbered, trust and obey as His strong arm will guide and protect you, nothing escapes His loving control, …

]]> By: chrisbollegar http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-80 chrisbollegar Sat, 18 Oct 2008 19:10:27 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-80 I don't have any uncomfortability. As I said I have been happy on both sides of the fence. What I was seeking to demonstrate by this post was the sense that the scriptures don't ask the questions that our theologians do...like the ones you bring up in your post [predestination of all events, the place of free will, etc.]. I just find that interesting that God is able to communicate his sovereign [as understood in my post] prerogative in history without resorting to our models of "solving" the problem of predestination. Does that make sense? I don’t have any uncomfortability. As I said I have been happy on both sides of the fence. What I was seeking to demonstrate by this post was the sense that the scriptures don’t ask the questions that our theologians do…like the ones you bring up in your post [predestination of all events, the place of free will, etc.]. I just find that interesting that God is able to communicate his sovereign [as understood in my post] prerogative in history without resorting to our models of “solving” the problem of predestination. Does that make sense?

]]> By: St. Ampher http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/2008/09/26/my-calvinistic-mistake/#comment-77 St. Ampher Fri, 10 Oct 2008 23:28:57 +0000 http://chrisbollegar.wordpress.com/?p=109#comment-77 Pastor B, Ok then, if God decides to do stuff and is pretty good about following through, then we should then ask: "How much stuff does God do?" and "Is there stuff He does or did that He never really thought about beforehand -- that just kinda happened before he had a chance to think it through?" Are you worried that the predestinationistas want to say: "Well, He does A LOT of stuff. So much stuff does He do that, in fact, ain't here no pie He don't got His fingers in. He's a regular busy body in our sitchyation down here.?" I'm guessing even that doesn't worry you. In fact, that's a comfort to you, yes? I'm guessing further that what you really are uncomfortable with is the idea that with all God's pervasive intrusions, though meant for good for those that love Him, He might be overstepping the bounds of respect for our independent personalities and FORCING us against a choice we would otherwise make to either love Him or reject Him. And that should be up to us, since that's how it feels He set up the game in the first place. I know I'm making it sound like a wimpy rehash of the old argument, but am I close to your real objection? For my part, that would be my objection to "modern" predestinarian lingo. And I have a real good answer, though it sounds like a nonanswer, but it works for me. Pastor B,

Ok then, if God decides to do stuff and is pretty good about following through, then we should then ask: “How much stuff does God do?” and “Is there stuff He does or did that He never really thought about beforehand — that just kinda happened before he had a chance to think it through?”

Are you worried that the predestinationistas want to say: “Well, He does A LOT of stuff. So much stuff does He do that, in fact, ain’t here no pie He don’t got His fingers in. He’s a regular busy body in our sitchyation down here.?” I’m guessing even that doesn’t worry you. In fact, that’s a comfort to you, yes?

I’m guessing further that what you really are uncomfortable with is the idea that with all God’s pervasive intrusions, though meant for good for those that love Him, He might be overstepping the bounds of respect for our independent personalities and FORCING us against a choice we would otherwise make to either love Him or reject Him. And that should be up to us, since that’s how it feels He set up the game in the first place.

I know I’m making it sound like a wimpy rehash of the old argument, but am I close to your real objection? For my part, that would be my objection to “modern” predestinarian lingo. And I have a real good answer, though it sounds like a nonanswer, but it works for me.

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