Through A Glass Darkly

Hi Chris,

I’m going with both. The picture of God in the bible is primarily one of a supremely good big guy who predetermines all details in accordance with that goodness. You can trust him — he’s got your back. He’s not playing by someone else’s rules because all rules are his and they ooze out of and are produced from his personality. We call his rules “good” not because they live up to some standard above himself, but because we recognize (by virtue of being chips off the old block ourselves) that they are reflections of his personality.

But wait, there’s more! If you call now, you don’t get just his glowing good nature to bask in and his resulting good rules to live by. You’ll also get the comfort that he’s got every hair on your head numbered, and that if a tower falls — it’s his doing, for good. He controls EVERYTHING for your good. Predetermination? Yes, but not in the human-robotic-machinistic cold sense. In the lively, wild and comforting Good Shephard sense.

Hi again my man,

When you say you can’t think of any OT passage pointing to His predetermining of any event, I’m sure you have me confused. Do you see Him predetermining His own actions anytime back then? How much of what He said He would do, did he determine ahead to do? “Let us make man.” Wammo. “His heel shall bruise his head.” Bang-biff-bam. Go into the Land and I shall surely give it unto you. Zap.

Then there’s the foreknowledge of other’s aspect that maybe you see has good guess work on His part: They shall flee before thee … This time next year thou shalt have a son.

Then there’s the “irresistable” grace/punishment parts: I shall harden Pharoah’s heart. I will give you a heart of flesh.

Hep us, pastor to see what we’re seeing into this now as his supremecy of rule / power / independence from yet self-government into and through our environment.

Pastor B,

Ok then, if God decides to do stuff and is pretty good about following through, then we should then ask: “How much stuff does God do?” and “Is there stuff He does or did that He never really thought about beforehand — that just kinda happened before he had a chance to think it through?”

Are you worried that the predestinationistas want to say: “Well, He does A LOT of stuff. So much stuff does He do that, in fact, ain’t here no pie He don’t got His fingers in. He’s a regular busy body in our sitchyation down here.?” I’m guessing even that doesn’t worry you. In fact, that’s a comfort to you, yes?

I’m guessing further that what you really are uncomfortable with is the idea that with all God’s pervasive intrusions, though meant for good for those that love Him, He might be overstepping the bounds of respect for our independent personalities and FORCING us against a choice we would otherwise make to either love Him or reject Him. And that should be up to us, since that’s how it feels He set up the game in the first place.

I know I’m making it sound like a wimpy rehash of the old argument, but am I close to your real objection? For my part, that would be my objection to “modern” predestinarian lingo. And I have a real good answer, though it sounds like a nonanswer, but it works for me.

I here you saying God doesn’t in Scripture (OT, anyway) present Himself as predetermining every detail of history before it happens — an idea about which philosophers and theologians show a lot of interest. And I’m responding that a person might indeed get the sense from the OT that He does indeed craft every nook and crany of historical narrative. That the OT presents this without “asking the questions” of predestination could be the result of not being a question or troublesome issue in the first place. As a pastor, incidentally, I bet you take the same tack in counseling the broken — the Lord is working His purpose out, all the hairs are numbered, trust and obey as His strong arm will guide and protect you, nothing escapes His loving control, …

On counseling, I’m saying not that God proposed the adultery, as though He endorsed it, but rather along the lines “He knows … He knows. He was right there and felt the pain and betrayal before you knew it was happening. He’ll carry you through it.

On which passages support crafting all the events — you’d probably want me to start at the beginning. “What was He thinking!! Didn’t He know what would happen, what with all this pain and death — even His own Son eventually got caught up in this mess. I bet He wouldn’t do that again!”

So again, I’m going with both. I see this here Book as the story told by the Sovereign we both agree is doing what He wants when He wants. But seems to me He also portrays Himself as not only knowing in advance how the story is going to unfold, but also as constructing the individual characters and national movements and even natural phenomena along the way to get to the happy ending He has in mind. “I will raise up so-and-so” and I will harden that dude’s heart” etc.

He predicts/foretells/predestines/makes happen tons of stuff, to the extent that I take it that He is running the whole show and making sure it all goes down as planned.

But what He DOESN’T reveal in this story is YOUR (or my) place in it — on the good side or bad? The book is constructed for the whole purpose of making the reader/listener ask this question. If you have ears to hear, you’ll go: “Wo — Oh … My … God … This thing’s real. Oh Jesus, I’m in a world a hurt. Please make it be that You have chosen me. I’m sincerely begging You.” And asking this is, of course, a pretty good indication itself that you are hidden in the story with the guys in white hats.

But this is the hear of your, preacher. Follow the Word. Don’t show God as “sovereign” but without the all encompassing plan AND activity to get us there; but to ask your hearers if they are on the right side of His plan and actions. “Has He given you faith? You have been given this moment to desparately beg Him for it. And if indeed you do, you will by that very participation with Him have evidence and know that you are His. If you will or can not, I pray God helps you soon. Because there will be no greater tragedy/hell/misery than what is about to unfold for you.

Stretchin keeps ya limber.